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BeerLeague #1914
XP discrepancy needs to be addressed(1)Category: GeneralApril-28-2015 9:52 PM PDT (5 years ago) Go to Blizzard forum post
TLDR: XP gains need to be shared evenly between all party members the same way MF was shared way back in early Vanilla.

The Situation

For those unaware, the current farming meta revolves around around speed 42-46 grift runs in a four man party with two (or three) DPS characters (usually DH, Barb or wiz) and two (or one) support character. The DPS characters, particularly DH, are capable of about 30b XP per hour. The support characters are easily able to double this amount and in some cases almost triple it.

The Problem

There are actually two problems. The first of which is that this creates group tension at higher levels. No one wants to play DPS. Why would they when they can gain double more more XP as a support class? It also creates arguments in groups. I can not count how many monks I have run with who try and justify not using Palm or FoAT in groups. Or WDs who think that running crown and borns sword are superior choices. Or Saders who don't even have enough CDR to do their job.

Outside of seasons this has slightly been eliminated by the trend that Zdps or support brings the keys and the DPS merely recycles. However, this is not the meta in seasons and is infuriating beyond belief. I sure has hell to not want to share my keys with someone who is there simply so we have a 4th.

Don't get me wrong, support has their place and can be fun to play when played and geared correctly. However, having a meta that encourages straight leaching is not enjoyable and is exactly the same situation that Blizzard didn't like with MF.

The second problem that arises is from Paragon power. A person min/maxing that knows how to play and gear their class can currently go from Paragon 0 to paragon 800 in about 200-250 hours (only averages around 10-15b per hour) on seasons while playing a DPS class. Zdps can do that in about half the time. Sub 800 paragon comes quickly and easily no matter the class you play and there is very little power spike at all between 600-800. After 800 though, players can amass a huge amount of power that allows them to much more easily complete higher level Grifts solo and in groups. For those who are unaware, the difference between paragon 800 and 1000 is massive.

Let me be clear, I have no problem with people who spend time in the game being rewarded with power. That is good game design. However, in order to get these paragon levels players are ONLY able to play zpds support characters if they hope to achieve the goal in any reasonable amount of time.

This season, paragon 1000 will be achieved in less than 300 hours of play for Zdps classes if played efficiently. A DPS class player who does not play support will take 800+ hours.

The Solution

Balance XP between all party members. If one member has a 50% bonus, another has a 60% bonus and two others have 200% bonus, simply average the bonus XP and apply it to the party so all members would enjoy a 127% increase to XP.

This fixes the need to play ZDPS as the only way to gain XP at an efficient rate past 800 and also helps solve the leacher problem in groups as groups would strive to clear as fast as possible instead of focusing solely on XP for themselves.

This will NOT decrease the need for support classes in groups as they will still be wanted for their mob control and their overall net XP gain to groups.

Peace
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Tyvalir
XP discrepancy needs to be addressed(334)May-11-2015 4:37 PM PDT (5 years ago) Go to Blizzard forum post
Posted by: BeerLeague

No one wants to play DPS. Why would they when they can gain double more more XP as a support class?

Thanks for bringing this up, BeerLeague, and thanks to everyone who's added to the constructive discussion in this thread. This issue is actually connected with the ability to perma-stun enemies, which we'll be looking to remove in an upcoming patch.

In fact, the ability to perma-stun enemies is one of the reasons support builds in Greater Rifts are able to gear heavily toward experience gain while ignoring defensive stats. Regardless of the specific changes we make to stun skills, our goal will be for defensive affixes on gear to become more valuable. This should bring the leveling speed of players using support builds more in line with those using DPS builds.

(Also, in case you missed it, we previously mentioned our goal of addressing perma-stun builds in our last Tavern Talk livestream. At the time, Wyatt mentioned that we're "not cool" with these builds, and would be making changes to them.)
Avatar of Tyvalir
Tyvalir
XP discrepancy needs to be addressed(448)May-12-2015 12:35 PM PDT (5 years ago) Go to Blizzard forum post
Posted by: Rognar

This has nothing to do with perma stun, you don't need or want perma stun in speed rift for xp.

Posted by: BeerLeague

Thanks for the reply, but the topic was missed in your reply unfortunately. Perma-fear is rarely a thing below GR 50, and certainly isn't a thing for XP runs.

Posted by: DoomBringer

We don't even need perma-Fear or CC to do speed run.

In fact, when we're actually pushing GR, we don't want any "leechers" in our party. We want people that are fully optimized for pushing.

Removing perma-CC will not address the XP discrepancy at all. It doesn't fix anything at all. It only affects people who are trying to push.

Gah, you're right - I totally missed the mark there.

It sounds like your concern is more with how support builds that focus on experience boosting gear and run mid-tier Greater Rifts in groups are the most efficient builds at speed leveling, and that this both diminishes the value of playing DPS roles in groups and can lead to power disparity between competitive players in Seasons.

Thanks for clarifying that, and distinguishing between this strategy versus those that focus on pushing higher Greater Rifts. I've made sure to clarify this in passing your feedback to the design team. So sorry for the confusion!
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